In a marquee on the forecourt of the iconic Sydney Opera House, the Presbyterian Church of Australia (through the agency of the Trustees of the PC New South Wales) hosted a reception and luncheon for Timothy Keller.
Planter of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York, and more latterly leader of the City To City church planting network and prolific author, Keller is in Sydney for a number of short conferences hosted by City To City Australia.
The function itself represented an investment in nurturing a culture of church-planting and revitalisation in the Presbyterian Church of Australia. It also recognised the quality and scope of Keller’s work as a pastor who brings God’s Word to a diverse and confronting cultural situation.
Part of the program featured a discussion between Keller and David Jones, former moderator-general and a church-planting preacher of note himself. It was basically a question an answer format.
Here are so notes I took.
As always, please remember this is what I heard, and does not purport to be a verbatim reproduction.
If it makes sense and is wise and instructive that’s Keller, if it makes no sense and seems stupid, that’s me mishearing him.
Timothy Keller and David Jones
Q. Can you describe the Redeemer Network?
A. Not easily. Some Church Planting Networks ‘own’ the church plants. City To City doesn’t. They help leaders start churches. They help churches plant daughter churches. The degree of autonomy or identification is up to them, and according to their needs. For instance in Tokyo a church plant will need help and ongoing relationship because of the lack of other churches.
They have supported over 300 churches in 50 cities around the world.
So some are Redeemer, others less so.
Redeemer is a Presbyterian Church in America church, fully invested in the denomination.
Not the only one that helps plant churches that are not Presbyterian.
As far as a conflicts about supporting the planting of non-Presbyterian churches. Westminster Confession 20 with regard to conscience is helpful.
Beyond that most support goes into Presbyterian Church plants.
Q. The Australian Presbyterian Church is serious about church planting, any advice?
A. Keller had a background in denominational church planting before Redeemer.
Twenty years later he planted Redeemer.
Time and again he gave the pep-talk, this time he followed it.
He observed that the daughter church model was more likely to be successful, but ran a higher risk of not being itself but derivative of the planting church.
The stand alone model of church plant was less likely to be successful, but more likely to be innovative and express something fresh.
Q. Is there a Presbyterian model of church plant?
A. Autocratic personalities can create very fruitful ministries, as a connectional denomination, the Presbyterian church doesn’t attract / appeal to those personality types.
Accountability to the wider church can chafe.
Presbyterian polity doesn’t fit large churches well.
Church Order can be restrictive of differing expressions of church.
Q. What is the nature of Eldership in a large church like Redeemer?
Keller sought elaborately to preface the observation that regardless of whether churches are low church or high church, if the pastor is on a level of authority with no one alongside him, there is nothing to stop them being authoritarian.
Elders have control in contrast alongside the pastor. Keller shared a situation where the elders had ruled against an outcome he had sought.
Elders have to be careful not to micromanage.
Q. Any insights about elder selection?
Elders being necessary, still need to be well trained or functional inertia can result. Collegial decision making can become too slow. Other traditions can adapt or move more swiftly. (Committee meetings, anyone?)
As a generalisation Elders – more organisational; Pastors more theological. Practical against theory.
A bad model is where the elders are the Board and the pastor the CEO.
Q. What qualities of leadership are needed for plant or revitalisation?
The two have different and contrasting skill sets.
In revitalising: work on relationships, hold off change except for the very easy. Let them know that you would do anything. They’ve invested in what’s there, you earn the right through trust to make changes.
Learn difference between elders/leaders who vote no, but will support majority decisions, or who vote no and will continue to oppose a decision through its implementation.
In a church plant: the leader is visionary and insistent. You started it, you make the call. You started it, they earn inputs.
Q. What sort of breed is a church planter?
A. Are they a gatherer who hands on, or someone who stays and pastors?
Starters can lose interest at a certain point. It’s not unhealthy, but the starter needs to commence the transition.
Someone who can gather folk and then scatter them has a character flaw.
Assess talent to make sure people like that don’t get through.
Q. Population in Australia has smaller rural centers. What is there for them in the City To City movement?
A. Australia is already urbanised and cities the focus. In the USA cities were not the ideal, and it was a task to get church planters to go to them.
If in Australia they are central maybe you beat the drum the other way. Promote the call to go outside cities in Australia.
In the US the cultural difference is diminishing between city and country because of technology. Everyone has access to similar culture in almost the same time frame.
Is that the same in Australia?
You can’t ignore either city or country.
David Jones inserted a plug for the Revitalising Preaching conferences which David Cook is sponsoring around Australia.
Q. What have you learned from your study of Martin Lloyd-Jones’ preaching.
A. Listening to hundreds of Lloyd-Jones’ sermons lead to appreciation of both process and fruit.
Morning sermons: edification – evening sermons: evangelistic.
MLJ expected to be edifying while evangelising.
Not either or in morning and evening sermons they were either largely edifying with a view to evangelism or largely evangelism with a view to edify.
His evening messages more often old testament, where there are stories. Engage with OT story, then go to the NT point of the OT story.
(There was an interesting conversation earlier in the lunch between Keller and CS Tang where Keller commented about Tolkien’s works being a pre-evangelism introducing people to a world-view which is only fully realised and realisable through the Gospel.)
1950’s London closer to 1980’s New York. Keller appreciated Dick Lucas’ businessman’s lunchtime sermons for the same reason. Preaching to secular people on their ground.
Keller is an American of his time and can’t be MLJ.
MLJ works for an encounter with God, not just an explanation of the text.
Keller commended Timothy Ward’s The Living Word.
God’s Word and deed are together. He speaks and it is.
In preaching don’t say we’re going to teach you and you teach others.
God’s word is an action. He is actively dynamic when we take the word.
Something is happening right there and now in preaching.
The preacher must be the first to have an encounter with God while preaching.
Q. How to encourage prayer and corporate prayer?
A. Not read inform pray, but encounter affections pray.
Don’t try to be the Holy Spirit.
Q. Congregational prayer meeting?
A. Lloyd-Jones would present an experiential devotion as part of the Congregational prayer meeting.
Keller’s own efforts along any similar lines did not draw people out.
Q. How have you grown as a preacher?
A. Through prayer life and time to study the Bible.
People in congregation pray. Not easy with a big congregation.
Q. What contributes to growth as a preacher?
A. Time away to study and read big books.
Following the McCheyne reading calendar.
When he had his thyroid cancer they decided to move their prayer life up a notch.
Q. What give him hope/optimism?
A. Secularism is a western white phenomenon.
Book: The Barbarian Conversion
Many western cities are being populated with churches from non-western cultures.
Chinese Christianity will make contributions. (Some amusing comment about Chinese originated worship songs being sung in Welsh in heaven.)
Presbyterians won’t reach everything. But we should continue to be what we are so as not to leave a gap.
Final comments on Australian suspicion of North American trends:
Learn what you can, questioning without cynicism.
North Americans are creating for their own context, not ours, and we should remember that.
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